.50 BMG on prairie dogs? [Archive] (2024)

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Prairie_menace

September 24, 2005, 10:00 AM

This I gotta see...

http://dogbegoneandbeyond.com/

Webleymkv

September 24, 2005, 10:03 AM

Overkill anyone? :D

Lycanthrope

September 24, 2005, 10:21 AM

That's it. The gauntlet has been thrown.....

Time to find a .50 and some chipmunks.

XDoctor

September 24, 2005, 12:54 PM

That's like using a nine pound cannon as a sniper rifle. I have to try this! :D

Onslaught

September 24, 2005, 02:54 PM

:rolleyes:

That "uban legend" comes from this (http://dogbegone.com/) website where varmint and other "normal" caliber rifles are used and the things STILL blow all to hades...

I don't know if this new video is by the same people, or just somebody playing off their success, but the dogbegone guys use high speed professional equipment, not some digital camera to take the pics, so if the new website is just a couple of morons trying to make a buck off the dog be gone name... the quality probably won't be there.

If it's the same guys, well...

Either way, for some reason the thought just doesn't amuse me... :confused:

Ac1d0v3r1d3

September 24, 2005, 07:38 PM

this is the kind of stuff that gives hunters and guns a bad name. these guys are killing things for fun. personally i think thats wrong. feel free to disagree if you'd like.

USP.40

September 24, 2005, 07:44 PM

I think it's sick.

DimitriS

September 24, 2005, 08:49 PM

+1 for Ac1d and USP40.

Dimitri

swmike

September 24, 2005, 09:06 PM

I was accused once of shooting the gophers with the main gun on an M-60 Tank (105mm). :D (Note:I think that meant I missed my primary target :eek: )

Blackwater OPS

September 24, 2005, 09:41 PM

The original title was "Rednecks Go Wild #2"

TPAW

September 24, 2005, 10:15 PM

Learn something about sportsmanship. Not impressive at all.

(Edited by Don Gwinn for language. Remember, the poster is not the one who created the videos.)

281 Quad Cam

September 24, 2005, 10:22 PM

Cant wait for anti's to get ahold of this... Even i could make a strong argument against guns with it.

CNN has already run 2 specials on how dangerous .50 cals are, complete with visits to barret and buying their own rifle and shooting at a (and listen up, because this is key) COMMERCIAL AIRPLANE door to demonstrate just how "monsterous a calibre it is." Couldn't a .38 put a hole in an airplane door? In this post 9/11 world I'm sure that caught peoples attention.

TPAW

September 24, 2005, 11:21 PM

Could be a "plant" by the left wing to make us look bad! Think about it! What better way to destroy our hobby/sport, than to have someone post his or her idiotic thread with something that is demeaning to us? Thing about it.
Carefull what you say, the enemy is out there listening!
Am I paranoid, or do most people refuse to accept the truth? :confused:

Olaf

September 24, 2005, 11:22 PM

SICK bas*#@$+ !!! That is appalling. I've always considered "varmint hunting" to be disgusting and sick anyway...these guys take the prize.

Trip20

September 24, 2005, 11:24 PM

States poison prairie dogs (and so do land owners/ranchers) all the time, on a massive scale...

Their natural predators are not capable of controlling their population numbers. They ruin the grazing land that cattle use (cattle which feeds and clothes us all). You may think this is "gross" but it's necessary to control the populations. The states make money from the sale of licenses, and save money on exterminations, which they would otherwise have to fund. Land owners often let hunters hunt free as the hunters do them a service, and save them money.

There are thousands and thousands of varmint hunters across the nation. While I don't think a .50bmg is necessary - and the post borders on pointless spam really - this is all old news... varmint hunting is nothing new.

Get a life pecker head! Learn something about sportsmanship. Not impressive at all. Just shows the stupidity of what's out there, and that's you!

TPAW - what the hell is wrong with you? Read the rules of TFL.

Nimitz87

September 25, 2005, 12:31 AM

uh all the video clips I saw stated that the rifles used were

1) Savage Model 110 FP in .223

2) Savage Model 12 FV in .22 - 250

3) New England Firearms Sportster in .17 HMR

...those dogs did fly though...

Chad

Olaf

September 25, 2005, 12:35 AM

Not to get into a debate about the "neccessity" of "varmint hunting"....but I should like to point out that the very reason that prairie dogs' "natural predators" cannot control their populatiions...is because of the actions of farmers, ranchers and "varmint hunters" destroying those predators (on the excuse that they are/were a threat to livestock, etc.). THEY are the ones who f*#$@d up the system of natural population control. So-called "varmint hunters" continue this every day...by needlessly shooting coyotes, for example. So, excuse me, but using the excuse that varmint control is necessary...and only protective of those who CAUSED THE BLOODY PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.... is rather dishonest, to say the least.

I am a hunter myself. But, as a matter of sportsmanship, I do not consider blowing up small animals in some sort of sick program of target practice...to be sport at all. Then further...to blame those very animals for the necessity of their own demise.... that is just as sick, in and of itself.

farmall

September 25, 2005, 12:44 AM

I'm with Trip20 on this one. Never jumped into an argument here at TFL, and dont plan on making a habit of it. Prairie dogs destroy a huge ammount of valuable rangeland here in Nebraska. The state Ag Extension Service published a study that shows that 50 p-dogs consume enough grass to summer 1 cow/calf pair. When you consider the ammount of devastation these little bastards can do, it's alot of money in lost land productivity for the rancher, who is already operating on thin profit margins. The old line about cattle and horses breaking legs in their holes is pretty much B.S., the real reason is the above mentioned destruction. This land does not heal like soils further east do. Once the topsoil is washed away erosion will continue unchecked (usually from wind) unless some measures are taken to prevent it. When the P-dogs destroy all the grass down to bare earth, the roots that bind this fragile soil are destroyed also, leaving nothing to hold it in place.
Nebraska is enacting laws requiring their control, and if the landowner opts not to control them, the state will, at expense to the landowner.
I have never experienced hospitality like I do up in cattle country. Where have you hunted where the landowner brings you beer, buys YOU supper, offers you the use of his pickup to get into places your car wont go? Hell, most times we set up, we get inturrupted by other ranchers telling us to come to their place next, always with promises of bigger, better, less wary dogs. We always gift the landowners well, and have never had a run in of any sort with them.
I don't hold with the use of .50BMG for varminting of any sort. Shooting anything that carries that far around livestock is just plain stupid. I have no idea if frangible bullets are available in 50BMG, don't find any in my catalogs.
Also don't feel we need the type of publicity provided by these videos, but I'm not going to try to have them stop production. I feel people that are offended should not watch them. I know damn well that none of the ranchers I shoot for would be!!!
Sorry for the rant. Didn't mean to step on anyones toes, but felt the need to get my point across.

Trip20

September 25, 2005, 12:51 AM

I should like to point out that the very reason that prairie dogs' "natural predators" cannot control their populatiions...is because of the actions of farmers, ranchers and "varmint hunters" destroying those predators (on the excuse that they are/were a threat to livestock, etc.). THEY are the ones who f*#$@d up the system of natural population control.
Your right, we should have just let the live-stock get eaten. Who cares if the farmers can put food on their own table, as long as you can keep getting full at yours. At least this way the prairie dogs would get eaten alive instead of instantaneously blown to bits.

Maybe the real necessity isn't prairie dog hunting. The real necessity is that as humans we need vast amounts of land in order to supply ourselves with food. Some food we eat is alive. Some predators like to eat the same food as us humans. We have stopped that from happening. It may have had some adverse effects, however we're doing things to control that as well.

It seems like people don't care what farmers must go through as long as they can pull up to the drive-thru and order a Big Mac with out hearing:
Sorry sir, due to the loss of cattle there is a shortage, however we've just started serving our new prairie dog burgers if you'd like to try one.

281 Quad Cam

September 25, 2005, 01:03 AM

Im not here to say whether it's right or wrong to control the population...

However a video with a joke section where they blow them up as part of a comedy routine with cartoon music. Showing off the rifles whilst wailing heavy metal... And than charging the public to see it as if its "Girls gone wild."

I mean... Whether you like that or not... You have to admit it looks bad on us, and if you take your head out of the praire dog hole very often, the last thing gun owners need is an irresponsible image. I dont know if the shooters are the people who put the "maximum carnage" appeal into the video...

Ya know Hilary is running in 08 :barf:

Trip20

September 25, 2005, 01:08 AM

Make no mistake - I'm not defending the video.

Ac1d0v3r1d3

September 25, 2005, 03:32 AM

i dont think this has anything to do with varmint hunting. this has to do with people killing for fun and making it into a joke, killing things isnt cool. this video is just distatseful.

joshua

September 25, 2005, 04:37 AM

I myself shoot PDogs and I get plenty of thanks from the cattle managers of the area I shoot out of. I have to admit that I have fun everytime I get the chance to shoot PDogs. I even shared my experience with a bullet manufacturer and gave them a quick brief on how their 50 grain .224 bullets performed and when I mentioned nothing but pink mist all the way out to 600 yards, he laughed out loud over the phone. If you're a hunter, why do you think the wildlife managers in your area provide so many buck and doe tags? With civilization expanding into nature's habitat we must manage the land and game for efficiency in reference to producing meat for the groceries. I don't think those DogBeGone boys are out of line at all. I'm not a moderator and surely not a senior member to police the forums, BUT please let's have a civilized discussion, don't come here slinging mud. josh

USP.40

September 25, 2005, 08:53 AM

Varmint hunting is fine. This just makes a mockery of it and makes the entire gun community look bad.

CDignition

September 25, 2005, 09:01 AM

Dogs are rats...they are Vermin, like it or not...Who cares if guys are having fun killin them, making fun videos..it dont look bad on anyone, stop feeding your guilt on others...some of u guys need to get off the estrogen...

Zekewolf

September 25, 2005, 09:37 AM

Ac1d0v3r1d3: 99% of hunters kill things for fun. Why do you think people hunt, for survival? If you don't want to hunt, don't.

Having said that, I think shooting game with a .50BMG is silly, but it's not up to me to decide what's silly for somebody else.

Duxman

September 25, 2005, 10:47 AM

Nobody is being forced to buy the videos at gunpoint. Since we are in the land of the free, as long as folks do not break the law - they should be allowed to excercise their freedom.

If that means shooting prairie dogs (that are vermin) with a 20mm round then so be it. If they need to make a video with some funny clips to pay the $5 bucks a round and someone is there to pay good money to buy it - thats capitalism.

Just think - if you have a rat problem in your house - there are many solutions - pesticide or poison (which sometimes makes them die a horrible death), traps, or you can shoot them with anything from a pellet gun to a .50 BMG (as long as you dont endanger your neighbors.) So if someone made a video of blasting rats with .50 BMG and put funny music on it - would that make people mad?

I personally think the cost to benefit ratio of vermin hunting with a $5 a shot round is economically not feasable - but thats just me.

Trapp

September 25, 2005, 11:47 AM

sounds like a bunch of vegans in here..............who cares what they are shot with. Heck, this makes more of a "clean" kill. No suffering here!....

impact

September 25, 2005, 12:01 PM

Olaf your lack of hunting skills and knowledge show. Varmint hunters have almost no impact on coyotes.

Ozzieman

September 25, 2005, 01:31 PM

I am sorry, I dont understand the complants, I dont hunt Pdogs becouse there arnt any in Indiana, But Groudhogs, they have my picture up in there dens. And I am proud of it.
Am I having fun KILLING ground hogs! Yes or I wouldnt be doing it.
Am I providing anything: You should hear the thanks I get from farmers who would be doing the same thing if they wernt so buisy trying to feed us all.
You just once need to see a ground hog eating his way down a soybean field in early spring when the shoots are only just coming out of the ground.
A ground hog can destroy an acker of beens a week.
If you dont like what we are doing with our hobby then find some other hobby to follow or join PETA and help back terroists.
You know what you get when you hit a ground hog thats been eating beens all day with a 6mm rem.
A green cloud
And I thought a 6mm was over kill.
So all us varment hunters are BAS****
Olif if you want somthing to kiss, I would be happy to bend over and,,,
well, you get the picture :mad:

TPAW

September 25, 2005, 02:15 PM

I think this quote sums it up. Plus one for Ac1dOv3r1d3

i dont think this has anything to do with varmint hunting. this has to do with people killing for fun and making it into a joke, killing things isnt cool. this video is just distatseful.

aspen1964

September 25, 2005, 02:28 PM

Death from Afar

September 25, 2005, 03:41 PM

Firstly, using a .50 cal is a bit silly as the round can go a long way and hit cattle or worse the farmer.

Secondly, to say that Varmint hunting is sick is playing right into the hands of the antis. I am not in to duck shooting, and how upset would some folks be if I said how cruel it was shooting daffy with a 12 gauge? The fact is that the varmints we get here in New Zealand ( rabbits) can sometimes only be hit at a long range- your .22LR just doesnt cut it.

Thirdly, we are talking varmints here- not trophy stags. Here in NZ we will go out and shoot 300 rabbits in an afternoon and barely make a dent.

Finally, there is this little thing called freedom of speech. If you dont like it, dont watch it.

Capt. Charlie

September 25, 2005, 04:00 PM

...I think there is a difference in hunting for food or pest-control without the lust of watching the animal blow apart and feeling glee at seeing it...I don't shoot animals to see how much damage I can do to them...bad mental-state
+1. There's nothing wrong with hunting. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the challenge of the stalk. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying the challenge of a long-range shot. But someone who lusts for the kill, viewing it with glee, the bloodier, the better, has some serious issues down deep inside. I gave up hunting for the table some years ago. I do varmit hunt, with a purpose. Groundhog holes and horses don't mix, and coyotes and sheep certainly don't. There are parts of it I enjoy, but the actual killing isn't one of them; I do it simply out of necessity, and I do everything I can to ensure a clean, quick kill. When I'm in areas where these critters don't threaten livestock, I leave 'em be. The act of using a .50 on dawgs doesn't bother me any more than using a .222 Rem.; after all, dead is dead, and it certainly is a quick, if bloody kill. What bothers me is their state of mind while doing it.

281 Quad Cam

September 25, 2005, 04:01 PM

Some people here COMPLETELY missed the boat about why some were offended.

No one here has said it isn't right to do, well maybe one guy. The problem is a video with heavy metal and "MAXIMUM CARNAGE" slogans.

Saying the video is in poor taste doesn't have anything to do with opinions on hunting or pest control. I dont care if you enjoy the killing - hell, i dont care if you laugh about it... but at some point it becomes distasteful. Somewhere around "maximum carnage" with banana peel sound effects and "wa, wa, waaaaa"

TPAW

September 25, 2005, 05:27 PM

Trip20 says....

what the hell is wrong with you? Read the rules of TFL.

Good example, thanks.

cuate

September 25, 2005, 05:34 PM

Try raising sheep or goats in "Yote" (coyote) country. If your income from that endeavor feeds you, you kill or poison every coyote you can. We are getting infested with feral hogs now, from where I have no idea. You see few in the daytime.

Olaf

September 25, 2005, 05:35 PM

Gentlemen, I expressed an opinion... which is exactly what we do here. The subject and character of this thread was an open invitation for this. If my opinion runs counter to yours, too bloody bad. Get over it.

jsp98m3

September 25, 2005, 05:42 PM

The cuter the animal, the bigger the outcry.

In China, Shark Fin Soup is a delicacy. There is a minority of people who decry killing the ugly shark for its fin.

There is a very BIG majority of the people who decry the ubiquitos use of excess cute kittens as shark bait and the Shark Fin industry was in trouble.

Said industry has decided to use common rats as bait. Nobody gives a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] about the sharks anymore.

CKy123

September 25, 2005, 06:03 PM

Hunting Prairie Dogs with .50cal, Man thats overkill and a huge waste of money.....I like it !!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :D

Well anyway as I was saying if you had a bad problem with prairie dogs, I really would'nt reccomend getting rid of them by spending Thousands of Dollars, to get ride of them, a .338 Super Magnum should do nicely.

joshua

September 25, 2005, 06:29 PM

Kalifornia is also infested with feral hogs but somehow they are starting to become the main game in some parts of Kalifornia. Not bad eating iether in the 50-75 lb class. I formed my rifle battery for the sole purpose of shooting PDogs, .223 TC Contender 14" and 21" bull barrels, 22-250 Rem, .270 Win and 30mm recoiless cannon. josh

cracked butt

September 25, 2005, 07:36 PM

I've never hunted prairie dogs, but have always wanted to. Some day I'll make a trip out west to plink some dogs. Looks like a lot of fun.

.50 for hunting dogs? Who cares? I don't know how much .50 ammo costs, but I'm assuming around $3 a round, what's wrong with making up the costs of shooting by selling videos of it? A few of the 'elite' bowhunters do it all of the time while shilling for a hunting product and hunting in a fenced in plot, not a whole lot of complaining is heard about that either.

Trip20

September 25, 2005, 10:18 PM

Trip20 says....

what the hell is wrong with you? Read the rules of TFL.

Good example, thanks.
...Let see, you said:
Get a life pecker head!
...and I said, in response to the "pecker head" comment:
what the hell is wrong with you?
I give you this example free of charge. Feel lucky, real lucky.

TPAW

September 25, 2005, 11:29 PM

Trip20 says......

I give you this example free of charge. Feel lucky, real lucky.

Thanks Clint Eastwood. I think you watch too many movies!
By the way, "pecker head" is a slang name for a rare species of woodpecker.
Lets not carry this contest too far. I'm sure we have better things to do.

joshua

September 26, 2005, 04:42 AM

In this corner weighing... Are you ready? Are you ready?.... Fight's on! Come on guys, do we really wanna behave like schoolchildren? It's a free country until the antis ban all usage of 50 cal rifles so be it let those guys make videos of it. They aren't breaking any laws so what's the problem? If they were using 223s or 22-250s is that going to make any difference. Stop it before the moderators close this topic. Hmmm... maybe not a bad idea. josh

Trapp

September 26, 2005, 07:02 AM

Ya'll should check out "Climax of the Hunt". Kill shots and kill shots only.....Smaller calibers or arrows only though........

Trip20

September 26, 2005, 10:54 AM

TPAW... that was tongue-in-cheek. I should have dropped a :p after the "real lucky" stuff.

Just trying to lighten up the mood a little I guess.

TPAW

September 26, 2005, 11:13 AM

Trip20

Said and done. Lets move on to calmer waters.
Happy Shooting! ;)

horseshoe3

September 26, 2005, 11:39 AM

If American farmers and ranchers followed your model of rangeland maintenance there would be no national food surplus. That means that whatever country you are in wouldn't be getting any more food foreign aid. :eek:

MidKnight

September 26, 2005, 11:59 AM

Varmint hunting is fine. Just like other forms of hunting, it's about controlling population. Deer in PA are an enourmous problem for those of us in the woods, like where I grew up. We killed many and that's fine because that's what's needed to keep a balance.

I enjoyed the hunt. I enjoyed the kill, but not for killings sake. I enjoyed it because it was the culmination of a hunt. A summer trekking thru the woods looking for scraps, rubs, and beds. Then finding the right spot and posting up an hour before dayline in 20 degree weather and patiently waiting for the right moment to drop my quarry.

I didn't do it to see heads explode. Personally, I think that what those people are doing is wrong. Why? 'Cause they do it for the wrong reasons, and they glorify the killing of Gods creatures not for a harvest, but for pure sport.

This is the view that most 'antis' have of hunters. They believe that we're out there to quench some sort of primal blood lust, and the facts are that 90%+ of us aren't. It's about being in the field and doing what we do to help restore the balance that man screwed up in the first place. Deer encroach on back roads and town because we've taken their land. I'm guessin the pdogs have no natural predators left and they flourish because we killed the predators.

Just my .02

2rugers

September 26, 2005, 01:18 PM

Come on! You have to admit watching them "splode" was pretty cool. Unless of course you are a card carrying member of peta!

Art Eatman

September 26, 2005, 01:33 PM

I gather that the consensus is that it's not the shooting that's offensive, it's the video with its sound track?

Remember: "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the bad taste of the American public." Don't believe me? Turn on the TV. Any channel.

Art

Death from Afar

September 26, 2005, 03:33 PM

Its not a rap soundtrack is it?!?!?! :barf: :barf: :barf:

Prairie_menace

October 12, 2005, 03:11 PM

Holy Cow!

Didn't realize what a can of worms I'd open with that link!

Granted, shooting pdogs with a 50 seems silly to most of us, but I bet it looks pretty cool on screen!

I saw their first video, and I thought it rocked. There was never any doubt of a clean kill!

Bottom line, it's legal, exciting, and fun (a rare combination!). Enjoy hunting in all its forms while we still can.

Rob P.

October 12, 2005, 03:57 PM

Killing or taking the life of some animal is NOT a "joke" nor is it "funny". Death is not something created for amusem*nt.

Not only are this video and the still shots disgusting but the host ISP should pull the rights of the website owner(s) and close the site.

It is one thing to kill. It is another thing entirely to get enjoyment from the death of a living creature. These people need therapy.

leadcounsel

October 12, 2005, 05:12 PM

+1 to all of those who oppose the senseless waste of animal life. I am a carnivore, but believe we should tread lightly and respect life.

[QUOTE]Their natural predators are not capable of controlling their population numbers. They ruin the grazing land that cattle use (cattle which feeds and clothes us all). You may think this is "gross" but it's necessary to control the populations. [QUOTE]

HUMANS are the reason that the food chain is screwed up. First we kill all of the big animals that eat the little ones. Then we complain because there are too many little ones and we take barbaric pleasure in killing them.

These stunts are what give gun owners a very bad name and I find this waste of life abusive and senseless.

Stop shootin' the coyotes and wolfs and snakes and they prarie dogs population will be controlled naturally.

Those who take ANY level of pleasure in this disturbing violence need therapy.

joshua

October 12, 2005, 05:37 PM

Leadcounsel, well said but I'm still for varmint hunting. josh

cracked butt

October 12, 2005, 07:21 PM

I am a carnivore, but believe we should tread lightly and respect life.

[quote]Their natural predators are not capable of controlling their population numbers. They ruin the grazing land that cattle use (cattle which feeds and clothes us all). You may think this is "gross" but it's necessary to control the populations. [quote]

These stunts are what give gun owners a very bad name and I find this waste of life abusive and senseless.

Stop shootin' the coyotes and wolfs and snakes and they prarie dogs population will be controlled naturally.

Do you eat Beef? If yes, then you are part of the problem as well unless you get all of your beef from argentina (McDonalds).

Ever go fishing? Its amusing, its fun. Some of the fish you catch and release are going to die, its a fact.

DimitriS

October 12, 2005, 07:44 PM

What ever I kill is used in some way or the other. So if I kill something I dont want it to be "vaporized" by using a overkill method to kill it.

If your killing for the sake of killing that isnt sport hunting or hunting its killing in my books. :mad:

Dimitri

2rugers

October 12, 2005, 08:14 PM

Well, I guess I am one of the few who actually still enjoys the killing part of hunting.
I also assume that makes me politically incorrect.:( I feel we sometimes deny ourselves the indulgence of being a true predator because we are concerned with "what someone will think".:barf:
Never forget it is the killing part that interests the young boy to try hunting to begin with. Some of us never lose our "blood lust" and gladly so. Loosen up and enjoy yourselves, I just missed a 2 lb. rat in the feed barn, but I will get that sucker eventually!:D

Terrierman

October 12, 2005, 08:21 PM

So I take it all you who are appalled at the senseless killing of innocent prairie dogs are equally opposed to the senseless killing of coyotes, crows, and pigeons?

chemist308

October 12, 2005, 08:35 PM

My wife used to have a prairie dog as a pet! That little fella was awesome--well actually it was a she, but anyway. A little on the destructive side in that we let it loose in the apartment and it ended up burrowing inside the couch--scared the hell out of me when it poked me in the back from inside the couch while I was watching TV :eek:

Anyway, I'm not an anti hunter by any means--squirrel and venison are good eats--but that was sick!

makarov

October 12, 2005, 09:38 PM

There was a really good article a few years ago in I think Scientific American or maybe Smithsonian. Anyway, the article was about prairie dog towns and how misunderstood their role in the ecosystem was. The ranchers for a hundred years have been claiming that they are varmints and need to be destroyed. Well, the truth is that they do not destroy the ranchland. The article pointed out that the areas where the dog towns were left untouched (a large indian reservation) actually had better grazing areas. These areas supported larger numbers of cattle or bison depending on what was there. The ranchers are not operating on sound science, just years and years of kill everything that isn't a cow or a sheep mentality. It is time to really take a long look at our effect on our environment and whether we really need to be killing off entire populations of certain animals. This is especially true of predator species. Anyway, just my two cents. FWIW, I support game hunting, but do not have any respect for trophy hunters who waste the meat, or people who kill just for fun.

Ace of Spades

October 12, 2005, 10:05 PM

And to think that the last time I was in Boulder, CO, I heard they were spending ~$500/ea. to relocate prairie dogs from housing developments under construction.

Ace of Spades

October 12, 2005, 10:10 PM

So I take it all you who are appalled at the senseless killing of innocent prairie dogs are equally opposed to the senseless killing of coyotes, crows, and pigeons?

Pretty much, but I'd like to state that killing pigeons is rarely senseless, considering how much those flying rats defecate.

DimitriS

October 12, 2005, 10:55 PM

I also assume that makes me politically incorrect. I feel we sometimes deny ourselves the indulgence of being a true predator because we are concerned with "what someone will think".

I enjoy the kill eventhough I only really kill for food etc. So personally I just rather have the best of both worlds killing and the eating ;)

So I take it all you who are appalled at the senseless killing of innocent prairie dogs are equally opposed to the senseless killing of coyotes, crows, and pigeons?

No not really sometimes since mother nature isnt controling the popluations we (humans) need to help her along. At the farm I go hunting on the farmers around ours have alot of live stock and there have been so many coyote killings of the live stock in the last month or so and the deer have left the area for the most part we are gonna be hunting them to lower there poplulation. This isnt sensless killing. They are removing the deer out of the area in such a long number that in the last 20 years this hasnt happend. :(

Is it wrong for me to help to lower the coyote poplulations ?? I dont think so and the farmers dogs actually eat BBQ'ed coyote (As I am told) so its all good :)

As for pigeons some people eat them I never tired them but I am told they are ok to eat. Never tried it though any thoughts ?? :confused:

Personally my problem is with the overkill used to kill them with a 50cal. Atleast if you didnt "blow up" the thing atleast the birds could have gotten too it ;)

Dimitri

leadcounsel

October 12, 2005, 11:27 PM

If overpopulation and destruction of the environment are the reasons given for sport killing of nuisance varmits, then tell me which mammal has overpopulated and caused the most destruction of the world?

Yes I eat meat but like to believe that the meat I eat is not wasted. The meat is effectively processed and the hides are used for leather, the "waste" meat used for dog food, etc. All carnivores hunt and eat meat, so I have no objections to this.

However, I have strong ethical, moral, religious, and intellectual objections to senseless waste of life -- whether it be rats, pigeons, squirrels, or YOURS. I would even object to the senseless waste of LIBERALS, which are lower than rats! :D

DimitriS

October 12, 2005, 11:37 PM

then tell me which mammal has overpopulated and caused the most destruction of the world?

I know! I know! The rat they are always running around in the trillions (so I am exagerating alittle :p) and they speard deseases and kill off massive amounts of us. :( They are the really distructive animals on the planet :(. ...... lol

I am kidding I know you are meant us humans. But I dont think we are that bad. I mean we are 6 billion or so. Last I checked there were alot more other animals that have larger populations. :p And you cant blame people in the past that decided to kill everything off. All you can do is help restore the ballance and hense killing off a few "pests" that endanger other animals is just helping mother nature along.

Think of it this way in the past there were 10 times more predetors in North America lets say, but there were 50 times more prey. So if the predetors raise in poplulation but the prey which isnt doesnt raise at the same rate to keep the system in equallibrium you need to shave off the predetors populations ;) There might have been more in the past but there arnt more of what they go after so you cant just let them take over thats bad management of the natural enviroment in my books :D

Dimitri

joshua

October 13, 2005, 07:14 AM

Ok, Ok, Ok... Dimitris and LeadCounsel you have convinced me. I'm gonna sell my 22-250 and 223 rifles since all I use them for is shooting varmints mainly PDogs. I'm gonna use my .270 from now on, bigger effect! :D Joking aside I don't want to shoot the darn PDogs into extinction; I just want to shoot some of them. I usually do the shooting in ranches where the owner wanted to decrease the population in certain areas. It beats poisoning that will certainly kill off some of the animals preying on PDogs. Plus my 50 grain bullets don't blow them into smitherings, just open them up a bit for the foxes, ferrets, owls and so on to have dinner later. :D I don't think they go to waste at all. What scraps did not get picked up by scavengers it will be fertilizer for grass sprouts. :D Take care and God bless you all. josh

horseshoe3

October 13, 2005, 08:43 AM

Point taken. And we're doing something about it. Since 1973 the US has been killing these "nuisances" to the tune of 1,300,000 per year. This is done largely for convenience with the fringe benefit of population control.

Art Eatman

October 13, 2005, 09:32 AM

Thinking about my emotions at the time of a hit with a gun: I guess it's mostly satisfaction. I know there is an "I feel good." emotion at having made a kill.

I don't shoot at something without a reason. I kill a coyote or two, I know that there's less pressure on other animals such as fawns or quail. Call it competition for food between me and Wily. Since I like to hear yodel dogs sing, I'm not gonna be serious about shooting bunches of coyotes.

While I don't quite understand why somebody would shoot hundreds of rounds in a day or two at prairie dogs, it doesn't bother me to shoot a few just because they're there. It's not much of a reason, sure: But, they are there. Maybe it's just the predator in me. I dunno. But if there are a gazillion prairie dogs out there, my shooting a relative few isn't gonna upset any balance of nature, for sure. Better I blow away a poodle dog than go up on a downtown tower, right? :D

Overall, absent slobbering excess, I think folks worry too much about our inherent predatory instincts. The idea, to me, is to maintain control over them without going bughouse over it all...

:), Art

leadcounsel

October 13, 2005, 10:57 AM

But if there are a gazillion prairie dogs out there, my shooting a relative few isn't gonna upset any balance of nature, for sure.

A young boy and his grandfather were walking along a beach after high tide and an unusually large number of starfish, ranging in the thousands, littered the beach waiting to die. The grandfather watched as the young boy made an apparent futile effort to gather as many as he could and return them to the water so that they may live. After several trips and handfuls of starfish, the grandfather noticed that even though the boy had returned many starfish, there were literally thousands remaining on the beach.

As the boy returned to gather more starfish, the grandfather stopped the boy and synically said, "Son, why are you wasting your time with these starfish? You can't possibly save them all and what difference does it make anyway?"

The boy looked at his grandfather for a moment and then looked down at a starfish at his feet. The boy reached down and picked up the starfish and said, "It matters to this one."

That's how I feel about sport killing. Sure, it doesn't matter to you as the brave hunter pulling the trigger. But it matters to the critter on the receiving end. It also matters to the unborn critters in its stomach or the baby critters waiting to be fed. You're not doing the critters' predators any favors by serving them dead food either. They must hunt for their food and nature gave them the skills to do that, and they need to hone their skills accordingly.

The "what does it matter" attitude is the very reason there ARE protected animals and animals that have been killed into extinction or near extinction, live wolves for instance. The "what does it matter" attitude is one of the worst attitudes of consumption and waste which gives gun owners the "red neck" bad name.

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. However, nature is a delicate balance that has been tampered with and harmed by people who fail to "tread lightly" and not waste resources, including life.

DimitriS

October 13, 2005, 11:35 AM

Lead I belive most sport hunters in this thread will agree with me in saying that killing a few animals wont matter. Look at your own situation that you said with the star fish, sure the boy is going to save a few but there are plenty that are gonna die anyways. Now when we are talking about deer and the like, starvation, cold, and desease kill alot more then hunters do each year. Hunters are the ones that are like that little boy that go out and help animals by feeding them in the winter so they dont strave to death, donate to hunting conservation groups to help them feed and manage the deer populations so they dont die off. Hunters sure kill a few but we also save alot more. And to be quite honest the little boy if he saved as much as he could then he "killed" a couple that would have naturally most likly died anyways isnt a problem now is it ?? ;)

For example in Ontario your hunting license dollars go stright to help animals not for administaration overhead. So when I go out and buy a 130$ 3 year fishing and small game license my money is going to help fish and animals, when I buy a 35$ deer tag its going to help animals too. I donate at fishing and hunting shows at boths every year when I go to them. Sure I kill a deer and a few other animals a year but I am also giving (roughtly I never cared to count) 150$ or so a year to help them. Now I wonder how many animals do these conservation groups claim to save each year comparied to the amount that hunters kill. I mean the Ontario Goverment started issuing up to 6 additional deer tags for the archery season because the deer are getting back into really high numbers that giving out more tags is a option. I think my (and all hunters in Ontario's) money that we have been giving to conservation have been working since the goverment is issuing more tags dont you ?? :D

Last I checked all/most Green Peace and other "Bleeding heart Liberals" dont donate anything to help animals but yet they complain about hunters killing them. If they cared so much about animals they would be paying to help them too but they arnt they just want to complain and b***h about it. :barf: I know one of my teachers at my school was a bleeding heart liberal and when he heard I liked hunting he was trying to make my time in school really bad till one day I got pissed off and in the middle of class told him off and he didnt say anything because he knew he never helped animals so what was he gonna say ?? That he helps animals by sitting back on his couch at night never lifting a fingure to give to donation groups that help animals and just complain and try to get the goverment to ban hunting. .... Seriously he was smart enough to [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] up about it after that and he never bothered me agian. Most Bleeding heart liberals I have ever known have some sort of blind faith in themselves and what they are doing is right and when you tell them how it is they cant say anything back because they know they are in the wrong :D

Well this is all relativly speaking about Ontario Canada since I have talked to OPP and Conservation Officers (like your Wildlife Officers) and thats what they say too :D

If you happen to be in the really small minority of Bleeding Heart Liberals that help animals in your area by donations and the like I am sorry about my coments and I dont mean to offened you I am just trying to state facts as best as my research into the topic has shown :cool:

PS Sorry to all of you for the long reply.

Dimitri

leadcounsel

October 13, 2005, 11:48 AM

DT, please reread my posts. I am a carnivore and feel that hunting for meat is fine. However, it's pure sport killing where I object on moral, ethical, emotional, and intellectual grounds. Bottom line is that I think killing for the pure fun of killing and spreading suffering is a pathetic and minority outlook on the lack of value of life and is one of the primary reasons that gun ownership is viewed in a derogatory light.

Sport killing is an ego trip and the reason that many valuable creatures are extict or facing extinction. It is ignorant to think you're helping mother nature along. The only reason you CAN sport kill with a rifle is because the creature is defenseless and helpless and cannot even fight back. Hence, you are a weak coward and enjoy killing innocent creatures that cannot fight back, and don't even have the courage to do it with your bare hands; you have to do it from afar with a rifle. If you disagree, why don't you take a knife and go stalk a bear that can fight back... oh, but where would the 'sport' in that be? You might actually be in *gasp* danger. :eek:

DimitriS

October 13, 2005, 12:10 PM

Lead I know what you ment I just thought about making a comparason of sport hunters, that little boy and Liberals :p

I can see myself killing/killed anyone of these and be put to good use after: Deer, moose, black bear, chipmuk, ground hogs, coyotes, and some "upland birds" as they call them :) Everything I mentioned could be used for something after I kill it so I have no problem with killing it since atleast it wont be "bang...then leave the animal there" killing. It will be hunting for sport which is ok to me too just killing for the sake of killing is wrong ;)

You sure enjoy the fact that lets say you got the deer down to 50yrds by calling it (the sport part) and killed it (the "enjoyment of killing your prey" as 2Ruger said), and then the guting part (the sensable thing to do to get ready for the next part), then the eating part (the not wasting of your natural resources that you too in a sporting mannor part). They all have there place in sport hunting :D But killing and just letting the animal rot in one spot because you just wanted its antlers or something is just simply killing and wrong :mad:

Dimitri

leadcounsel

October 13, 2005, 12:12 PM

I'm glad to see we seem to agree that sport killing is wasteful and wrong and hunting is okay.

Olaf

October 13, 2005, 12:17 PM

leadcounsel,

I have been reading the various posts in this thread...since I decided (some time ago) that I was wasting my time with it. I completely concur with your statements on this, indeed I was trying to express (earlier) exactly those thoughts which you have expressed so well. However, it has become painfully obvious that this is a losing battle. No matter what information or arguments are presented, those that favor gratuitous killing (the "varmint hunters" in the crowd) will simply create new variations of their half-baked positions, in order to rationalise some justification or relevance for their enthusiasm for cruelty and waste. It is much the same as trying to argue with the owner of a large SUV....as regards the reasons why wanton waste harms us all. Usually, the message does not get through...and those afflicted with the disease of waste for it's own sake, most often are never willing to consider the point honestly. I think, like for so many other things in this world.... they "just don't get it". So, I think it best to "cut my losses"....and not spend any more time on this. I humbly suggest that you do the same.

Of course, this is only a friendly word....from someone who heartily agrees with you. What you actually do is entirely your own decision.

DimitriS

October 13, 2005, 12:35 PM

Lead me too. Agreeing about this is really good :D

Dimitri

Rob P.

October 13, 2005, 01:34 PM

Geez, talk about missing the point.

The problem ISN'T the hunting. It ISN'T the attempt to reduce the varmit population. It ISN'T even the shooting, nor the waste of the animal as a food source. It has NOTHING to do with any of that.

What is wrong is the "blood lust" mentioned here. The desire to kill just because you CAN kill. The glee and extacy just from seeing something die.

As the highest form of intelligence on this earth, we have the power to give or take life on a whim. To take life is a serious act even if it's just a prairie dog's. To reduce that act to something to gloat about and profit from trivializes the fact that a life ended by your hand and desire.

Death is NOT a "happy thing". You can enjoy the hunt. You can enjoy the marksmanship, the challenge, the companionship. You can even feel good about the fact that you are a "provider". What you should NEVER do is allow yourself to feel good only about that split second between your target being alive and then dead. To glorify death for death's sake is wrong.

And THAT is what the video sells.

DocFox

October 13, 2005, 02:06 PM

Like rats, prairie dogs are like kudzu, you can't get rid of them. I have never hunted a day in my life (not saying it's right or wrong, just never had an interest one way or the other), and yes detonating animals is a bit twisted.

This in mind, I lived in Montana for 3 years, and those little things are invasive, dumb as a stump, and incredibly annoying. There are a multitude of roads in Montana nicknamed things like "Prairie Dog Row", or "Road Kill Highway". In some places you can't drive down the road without having to wash the blood off your car when you get to your destination because of these things.

Although I undestand the sentiment about wantonly killing animals for the heck of it, people who live in some areas mostly have 2 choices: kill em, or give the land back to nature ( i.e. move out of Montana or wherever)

Yes, the video is twisted, but don't condemn all "Varmint Hunters". Whether for sport or cattle or whatever, it keeps some places habitable.

Silvanus

October 13, 2005, 03:57 PM

I must admit that i cant understand why people enjoy the killing of a helpless animal:confused: I like the competition of shooting, the feel of nice gun, etc. but how can you feel great if you end the life of an "inferior" being? Just because they are not intelligent enough to wield a gun and shoot back, that makes you think they deserve their fate? Try to fight and kill them on even odds, kill a bear or a lion, even a large dog, with a knife or a dagger...they only have claws and teeth, too. So thats no big deal, right? . But I think you wouldnt like that, they could harm you!
Oh dear! How cruel those animals can be:eek: <==(*sarcasm*)
It sounds a bit luncatic but I could even understand if you feel good when you go to war and kill other soldiers (who are no helpless prey). I myself enjoy defeating someone in swordplay . I like the thought of being more "powerful" then my opponent:o But shooting an animal at 100m or more (or less) with a firearm and then feeling strong sounds kinda cowardly to ME, like crushing a bug. Thats only my humble opinion, but I wanted to share this with others who might perhaps think a bit the same way I do, so take no offence and plz dont ban me:rolleyes:

Silvanus

October 13, 2005, 04:00 PM

Oh BTW, hunting for food, cloth, because they endanger your cattle, etc. IS ok for me, but ppl like the ones in the video are sick:barf:

2rugers

October 14, 2005, 12:17 AM

What message are you sending Olaf? Is it that killing is wrong? Not eating the prairie dog is wrong? Enjoying killing is wrong or that we should all drive BMW's? "I just don't get it".:confused:
At this point in time there are not many of us who truly have to hunt for food. I certainly do not. But I still hunt for the excitement of the chase and the kill, as well as a good fried backstrap. Must I feel enlightened, transcended, or otherwise in touch with my inner spirit in so doing? No, I just like to shoot @#$%.:D
I am also not that person who takes pleasure in pain just for the sake of it. I did not put cats in the microwave or tear the wings off of butterflys as a boy. As a man, I have been known to stop on the highway and remove a turtle from harms way, or nurse an abandoned whitetail fawn as best I can. Am I an anomaly? I think not. I truly have looked into the eyes of a fading whitetail buck and felt compassion, pity and remorse. But also satisfaction. I had occasion to kill 18 rats in the feed barn recently in one sitting, with a pellet pistol and flashlight. What joy that was! Was I going to eat them? No.
I could have used poison or traps, but what fun is that?
Some have expressed that shooting defenseless prairie dogs is cowardly. How so? Does it take a braver man to stomp the life out of them? Besides, they are pretty fast, I once had one as a pet.
As far as killing things with other than a gun, well, that's just girly stuff.

Art Eatman

October 14, 2005, 12:37 AM

leadcounsel said, "Sport killing is an ego trip and the reason that many valuable creatures are extict or facing extinction."

Unless I'm misunderstanding what's meant by "sport killing", I gotta strongly disagree. No game animal in the U.S. is facing extinction because of modern-day sport hunting. None.

In the U.S., market hunting for hotel menus, and timber clearing, wiped out the passenger pigeon. US government policy almost wiped out the bison, to destroy the commissary of the plains Indians. Habitat loss via human development and changes in vegetation from overgrazing has put the Rocky Mountain Bighorn in jeopardy in some areas. In Texas, blue tongue from domestic sheep eliminated the Desert Bighorn there--but restoration is now beginning to succeed. None of this has anything to do with sport hunting as it has been practiced for the last seventy years or more.

A birder can be thrilled at seeing the last of a vanishing species. Contrariwise, a sport hunter can only hunt when there is a growing number of a species, such that he harvests one or more of what otherwise would come to be a surplus. This harvest--this kill--is what gives game animals the monetary value that has led to relatively permanent healthy populations (insofar as anything at all is ever permanent). Animals with monetary value are voluntarily protected from overharvest; it was hunters that got game/wildlife agencies created in their beginnings--and have taxed themselves to provide the money.

Art

Olaf

October 14, 2005, 12:43 AM

I believe that my "message" (if one could call it that), is quite clear - that waste....simply for it's own sake, is wrong. Especially if that "waste" involves gratuitous killing. Gratuitous killing is also cruel and unnecessary.
I did not...and am not, judging all hunting activity in the same light. I hunt myself - I just try never to waste game. I never harvest more than I can use....and I always use what I harvest. "Blowing up" small animals, such as Prairie Dogs, simply for sh*%@ and giggles....is not the same thing as responsible hunting. It is both cruel and unnecessary.

If anyone doesn't "get that".... I think that says alot about his/ her psychology.

Enough said.

GoRon

October 14, 2005, 07:56 AM

What is wrong is the "blood lust" mentioned here. The desire to kill just because you CAN kill. The glee and extacy just from seeing something die.

The Pdogs are just as dead if you kill them while being introspesctive and respectful or while giggling and laughing.

Trip20

October 14, 2005, 08:43 AM

I didn't know we had this many PETA members at TFL. ;)

DimitriS

October 14, 2005, 10:56 AM

I am not a member of PETA but I dont see why you should kill when you dont need to kill.

Killing animals without a purpose and letting your kill go to waste is a waste of your natural resources. Yes varmints and the like are your natural resources eventhough you might not think they are. Everything has there place and if you start killing them off without a care in the world to the waste that your doing I dont think thats right.

Animals like all wildlife is a natural resource. We humans in the last few hundered years have aready destabilized one too many natural food chains and the like. The ones we got left now that we know that we were doing something wrong we need to protect. Nature is a wonderful thing and buy making people think its ok to go around killing what ever we want and waste it then we are no better then the people from a hundered years ago that killed everything off.

The buffalo got distoried because people wanted its pelts so they went around killing them by the thousands and left the rest of there bodies for the most part sit in a feild and rot. Now we dont have any more left and for what ??

Sorry but any waste of a percious resource is a bad thing. If you dont want to protect and maintain and try to allow the natural enviroment to restablize and hopefully we stop losing more and more of our resources then think of it this way in what type of world without these resources will your grandkids or great grand kids grow up in ??. :(

Dimitri

2rugers

October 14, 2005, 03:43 PM

People always find it easy to berate others for their actions when the antagonist has no firsthand experience on the subject whatsoever.:barf:
Children will fawn and coo over a new puppy but begroan the fact it is not their turn to feed the adult dog. Women, (and alot of men), will whimper and whine with disdain when you say you kill deer, but want you to come a runnin' to squash that nasty bad mouse in "their:D", get it?, panty drawer. Why, when we eat the deer and throw out the mouse. (I hope Olaf):eek:
Prairie dogs are that nasty bad mouse in some ranchers pasture. Just as coyotes and wolves are in some areas. They make huge dirt mounds of what once was productive graze land, thereby costing him, and you and I, more moneyat the market.
I don't have any firsthand experience with prairie dog holes, but I have had a horse break a leg in a 'diller hole before, no fun.
It is always easy to pass judgement when you are on the clean end of the @#$% stick. So, which one of you "anti-prairie dog ass-assin," will be the first to roast up the next house mouse your wife deems unworthy of it's next breath.:D
P.S. I really am funny, am I the only one that notices?:p

joshua

October 14, 2005, 04:33 PM

2Rugers, I agree with everything you said. A retired buddy of mine move to AZ from California and after about a year had to put one of his horses down due to a badly broken leg. He thinks it's a PDog hole because he would rather watch in the spotting scope than shoot. After a while when you leave a PDog colony alone and they populate they build a interconnecting tunnels I for one has not seen any studies on how vast these tunnels are but I have seen a collapsed mound due to cattle stepping over it. I think if you leave them alone long enough they can tear up the ground where they'll build mounds of dirt and possible errosion if the tunnels are designed poorly and collapses. Someone here might say, little tunnels won't cause that much disturbance, but the fact is all you need in some areas is a disturbance on the ground and good amount of rain and viola. josh

sleeping dog

October 14, 2005, 05:37 PM

What if you tuck a .22LR projectile inside a .50 sabot? Would that be a good prairie dog round? Plenty of sturm & drang to scare the liberals, but weak enough to make it sporting (and you'll be able to find the pieces of the prairie dog). Is there a "wildcat" round like that?

Yes, such a round would be pointless. Sometimes we do pointless things anyways. :)

Regards

Art Eatman

October 14, 2005, 06:01 PM

Sorta pushing analogies: DimitriS, do you ever see rats around where you live? If so, do you consider them as the same as prairie dogs or squirrels or deer? Or do you set traps?

Not everywhere, but there are many places where farmers and ranchers look upon prairie dogs in the same manner as city folks regard rats. A prairie dog population can really reduce the harvest of one's alfalfa, for instance.

And so, a back-scratching deal has come about: The rancher or farmer gets the gross numbers reduced for his version of rats, and somebody else does the work and has the enjoyment of what might be termed a "working hunt".

Waste? Not according to buzzards and coyotes...

Art

Dave Haven

October 14, 2005, 09:44 PM

Waste? Not according to buzzards and coyotes...
And ravens and crows and any other carnivorous birds.

Death from Afar

October 14, 2005, 09:53 PM

I have had enough of this thread. It is not often I will comment on this sort of thing, but to accuse varmint hunters of being mentally defective just will not do. By analogy, if hunting for meat or fur is the only reason you should shoot animals, then all trophy hunting is bad, as is any big 6 hunting too. While we are about it, then shooting for pest control is wrong as well.

I do not dispute than man is responsible for an unbalenced eco system in many ways. In new zealand, the ntroduction of mammels was a disaster. In the 1930's deer numbers got so high that the government paid professional hunters to do nothing but cull deer. My grandfather would go out and shot 60 deer in a day and leave them to rot. Rabbits were worse. When i was at school i would go out for a shot after tea and shoot 200 rabbits. The most i have ever shot was 400 in an evening.

Varminting is a major tool in pest control. We introduced these animals, we must control them . and i enjoy it. I love haing the mastery of rifle and ammo to be able to hit a rabbit at 400 metres. It is more fun than putting holes in paper, more rewarding , and i love it.

Please dont consider this a flame. I think that maybe you havent actually been out hunting to see what it is all about. You are more than welcolm to come out here and I will show you what it is we do.

Could I also add that it does make me sad to think of shooters berating each others passion. I dont do deer hunting, but have no problem with those who do. WHat matters is that we as shooters must stick together, because once they start on the hunters, the target shooters are next.:(

makarov

November 3, 2005, 02:16 AM

Labeling them a "varmint" is a way to justify killing them off in large numbers. There is considerable evidence that they are actually a very valuable part of an ecosystem that ranchers have nearly destroyed. Prairie dogs are a native species. Cattle are not. Before you go on a prairie dog "red mist" club shoot, you owe it to yourself to do a little research.

Here is an article of a more progressive rancher who has a dog town on his ranch.

http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/printerFriendly.cfm?issueID=34&articleID=327

Partial quote to follow: "

It’s no accident prairie dogs have been called "nature’s lawn mowers." Their towns are as manicured as Florida’s best golf courses. Prairie dogs carefully chew down the vegetation around their towns to eliminate predator hiding spots, and they often get a hearty meal in the process. Ranchers view this mowing as bad news; that’s grass their cows need. Around 1902, C.H. Merriam of the U.S. Biological Survey declared that prairie dogs diminished grassland productivity by a whopping 50 to 75 percent. These figures have stuck in ranchers’ minds ever since, but no one is sure how Merriam came up with the numbers, says U.S. Forest Service biologist Dan Uresk.

So Uresk decided to do the experiments himself. "We asked, ´If you get rid of prairie dogs, how much forage do you gain?’ The answer was about four to seven percent," says Uresk. "It does impact the rancher in dollars and cents." But the costs of poisoning prairie dogs (borne largely by the federal government) outweigh the gains made by eliminating the animals. Because the government pays, however, "Ranchers think, ´Why not poison them if it’s free?’" he adds.

Tranel Sr. sees plenty of reasons not to poison them, although he and his son give predators a boost by building poles for raptors and digging trenches where foxes can hide. "It’s like a zoo around the prairie dog towns. We’ve got foxes, snakes, hawks, badgers, plovers and burrowing owls." With prairie dogs around, these species flourish. Uresk’s research shows that prairie dog towns have roughly twice the number of species as similar areas without the dogs.

The black-tailed prairie dog is what biologists call a keystone species. Lose the keystone, and the whole ecosystem crumbles down with it. Researchers once believed that as many as 208 species depend on prairie dogs, but a recent review of published data by Natasha Kotliar and her colleagues at the U.S. Geological Survey in Colorado revealed that those estimates were probably too high. Kotliar found strong evidence for nine species relying on prairie dogs, including the endangered black-footed ferret, which feeds almost exclusively on the animals; the mountain plover, a bird that requires the disturbed grassland habitat prairie dogs provide; the burrowing owl, which uses prairie dog burrows for homes; and the ferruginous hawk, which preys on prairie dogs. Evidence for other species was not as strong, or data wasn’t available, but Kotliar’s study nonetheless confirmed the prairie dog’s role as a keystone species.

http://www.ttup.ttu.edu/books/PRARIEDOG.html

makarov

November 3, 2005, 02:21 AM

One other note is that the prairie dogs are threatened. We are pushing them to extinction. Several articles indicated that less than 1% of their original habitat/numbers remain. Game animals are protected in ways that "varmints" are not. Like I said, labeling them that way is a way to get around having any kind of controlled policy on an animal. This is not like deer or elk hunting, or like shooting a non-native species like rabbits in New Zealand or Australia which are clearly overpopulating an area. These animals will be extinct if we are not careful.

Dragun

November 3, 2005, 05:16 AM

wow, what an aggrivating thread. all i have to say is "too bad for all the peta freaks. it just plain doesn't matter what you think". :cool: going to kill animals now, laterz....

joshua

November 3, 2005, 07:06 AM

If they do just buy some check out website. http://www.siouxindianart.com/pd.shtml

Joking aside the hunts will stop before prairie rats population become too low for healthy breeding. Then when the population is up again the population on 223, 22-250 and 50BMG will go down. :D Ease up man don't let this forum tread eat you up. josh

Art Eatman

November 3, 2005, 09:26 AM

Bemoaning the use of "varmint" sounds specious as to the reasoning; the same argument could be made for rats and co*ckroaches. Or feral hogs, for that matter...

Sorta apples and oranges to compare golf courses and alfalfa fields; one's "cute" and wonderful for wildlife in general; the other is a big hickey in the farmer's billfold. One thing for sure: I'll bet there are no PD mounds on the greens, and probably not in the fairways. That six-foot-diameter bald patch around the foot-high mound isn't conducive to happy golfing.

"Pests is pests" and all you can do is control the numbers.

Art

deadin

November 3, 2005, 11:05 AM

I'm not going to get into the pissing contest that's going on here, but I do want to make comment on irresponsible shooters that would fire a 50 without proper backstops. That 750gr slug isn't going to break-up like a .22 varmit rifle. It can burrow and relaunch itself. I'm not sure what the range of a 50 BMG is but I think it's in the 5-7 miles area. Can anybody guarantee what's 5-6 miles downrange? THink about it.

Also, If one of them little suckers takes a hit and gets up and starts to come for you, drop that BFG and run like hell. :D :D

Dean

1BadF350

November 3, 2005, 12:08 PM

Those videos are funny as hell.:D

Supertac

November 24, 2005, 01:19 AM

I just got home from killing ground squirrels and rabbits. I'm not eating them either...5.56mm makes nasty chunks fly too!!! :)

All the petafreaks on this thread shoulda been there!:rolleyes:

hags

November 24, 2005, 02:24 AM

real class bunch of guys.

stratus

November 24, 2005, 05:40 AM

Of all the hunters in the world, I respect the ones who use what they kill. That's called killing for a purpose.

I'm okay with killing for a purpose. I'm certainly okay with someone who has the integrity and the sincerity to find and kill his own food, and look the creature in the eye as it breathes its last. It's no different than going down to the butcher's - we all feed on death - except the purpose-driven hunter is in a lot less denial about it. Nothing wrong with hanging a trophy if you put the rest of the animal to good use.

There are plenty of liberal hypocrites that don't know what planet they're on, who don't like the idea of hunting, on the basis that it's cruel - yet many of them eat meat on a daily basis! Do they think that the cows in the slaughterhouses die a more dignified or meaningful death than an animal who has lived free, out in the wild, until its last day? People like that should consider what massive hypocrites they are when they bite into their next big mac. I'm lovin' it... not!

As far as the people who don't hunt for a purpose, but kill just for kicks, I see no point in rebuking you head-on. Do what you want, so long as it's on your own land. It's none of my business which critters you decide to slaughter for no good reason. Just don't let me catch you doing it anywhere near my ranch.

ME109

November 24, 2005, 08:36 AM

I just dont see much difference between those hunting for sustenance chastising varmint hunters, and gun grabbers creating roadblocks for those who chose to own guns. Hypocrites.

Now to some of my favorite quotes:

One other note is that prarie dogs are threatened. We are pushing them to extinction.

Obviously you've never been to a dogtown.

Do what you want, so long as it's on your own land.

I prefer Federal Land in Wyoming. You don't even need a hunting license.

But the best is being bashed by those that dont even live here. This topic could have been about Iraq with the same Euro/Canadian hand-wringing.

taylorce1

November 24, 2005, 10:02 AM

I have shot or attempeted to shoot prarie dogs with every type of firearm that I own or could borrow. I prefer the .22 LR, .22 WMR, .223, and .243 which are three rifles that I own. But I have also used .30-30, .270, .30-06, .30-40, 7mm mag, .300 mag, .303, and .338-06. I've even used .50 and .54 cal black powder rifles on prarie dogs and have attempeted to use my bow with no success as of yet. Most of the time I use the prarie dog to verify the zero of my hunting rifles this is a fun way to test my shooting ability.

I think when it comes down to firearms shoot what you enjoy and be proficent in what you use. I don't think that I would every shoot prarie dogs with a .50 BMG because I don't own one, and I don't think that I would ever purchase that kind of rifle because it has no practical use for me. But having said that it would be cool to smoke the little suckers at ranges far beyond the normal ranges that I shoot at. Is this kind of firearm overkill probably but if you can afford the bullets have fun.

DimitriS

November 24, 2005, 05:30 PM

Of all the hunters in the world, I respect the ones who use what they kill. That's called killing for a purpose.

+1 Killing is ok if your doing it with a reason.

I am agisnt killing for no reason, its like a hunting goes deer hunting shoots 3-4 of them and lets them run away and rot because he doesnt want to put his tag on one and just feels like killing.

Do what you want, so long as it's on your own land.It has nothing to do if its your land or not. Its your countries animals that your distorying there poplulations for no reason sure they might be "on" your land but they might go to other farmers land and goverment land as well. Owning the land doesnt mean its your free ticket to kill off any animal you want on it.

Sorta pushing analogies: DimitriS, do you ever see rats around where you live? If so, do you consider them as the same as prairie dogs or squirrels or deer? Or do you set traps?As a matter effect I lived in a city for most of my live (Toronto) and I dont actally mind seeing a mouse or a rat or seaguls, or pigions while walking on the road or in a park like alot of people do. They are part of nature so it doesnt bother me. :)

somebody else does the work and has the enjoyment of what might be termed a "working hunt". But the thing is if the farmer is having a rought time with a certain animal and they are over popluating and killing off his live stock or eating all of his crops I actually dont mind that kind of "work hunting" Its still hunting with a purpose. Killing them because they are "there" without impacting the farmer is wrong to me. If they are getting out of control then yes I do think killing them is a'ok. :)

Dont get me wrong I dont mind people when they kill animals because they got out of control in there population. They need to have there growth stoped before they do alot of damage. Its just that I dont see why some people would like to go out and shoot animals to the point of extiction just because they can and because the killing of them brings them enjoyment. :barf:

That reminds me we saw a monster wolf when we went deer hunting in archery season for the first time. The farmers were thining the coyotes and wolves that same weekend because they were eating there livestock every night on a regular basis because they are way too many this year in the area. It was like 200yards away walking away from us and it looked as big as a deer (compared to how tall was the wheat). At first because it was in the feild and most of the body was covered we couldnt tell if it was a deer or not, (alot of sunshine made the whole feild kinda seem reflective it was a good day not a cloud in the sky and it was at about 1pm)when it got out into the open at about 350 yards away we saw that it was a wolf and we were surprised a wolf could get that big :eek:

PS Art sorry for the delayed reply I havnt checked this thread in a while :o

Dimitri

fisherman66

November 24, 2005, 06:09 PM

That video is very distasteful. I will defend their right to do it, but I wouldn't be caught with the video. Similarly, I find many hunting videos distasteful to a lesser extent. Similarly, I defend their rights.

Any time I have taken an animals life - I've been aware of the life extinguished, table fare or varmint.

Art Eatman

November 24, 2005, 06:42 PM

I never get particularly notional as long as a species is healthy. Viable population and all that. After that, it's merely different strokes for different folks.

I do tend to get a bit bent out of shape when folks go to wanting to legislate good taste. :D

Art

Ultima-Ratio

November 24, 2005, 07:11 PM

Tree huggers on a gun board, go figure:barf:
I liked the video but I also enjoyed shooting the puppies back in Colorado:p

DimitriS

November 24, 2005, 08:00 PM

Ultima,

Any of us such as myself that think killing PD or other animals for no reason arnt tree huggers :rolleyes:

Its just that when people go around and kill off a species or 2 they dont think about the future. They think "lets kill them" and forget that we need to protect our enviroment as well. We have aready wiped out alot of species on the world because we figured we may as well kill them. Such as the buffalo. :(

I am young 18, by the time I figure I get grandkids I will be 60+, What will the animal populations be if we didnt control/limit ourselves when we kill animals ?? I think they wont be good. And I rather see in 40 years when I am a grandfather that animal populations are going good not to the worse. After all if we kill off all the deer what am I supposed to bring my granddaughter or grandson hunting for ?? :p

Personally I wont give a single cent to a animal rights club like WWF, PETA, or any other one. Will I give to a pro-hunting group thats trying to make sure animal populations are healthy and are growing while still keeping hunting ?? Yes. I spend sometimes more money at a hunting or fishing show giving it to conservation groups then spending it on buying stuff. :o

Some people who call people who are saying this isnt good treehuggers need to learn what a real tree hugger is. One of the many points of a "Ethical" hunter is that they wont kill for no reason, atleast thats what my "Ontario Hunter Safety Course" taught us, and most hunters I know in real life are agisnt killing for no reason too. :p

If you want to kill a deer or another animal for just its torphy value dont leave it on the feild to rot but do something good with it like: http://www.nrahq.org/hunting/hunterhungry.asp ... Then personally I dont care if you want to kill 100 deer a season. Atleast your not wasting the deer and your not just killing off a species without thinking about others/the future :cool:

Dimitri

taylorce1

December 2, 2005, 12:01 AM

I'm from Colorado and there has been an on going controversy over the Prairie Dogs. Lets just say that the "Special Interest Groups" want to get the Black Tailed Prairie Dog put on the endangered species list. Check out the Colorado DOW's web site http://wildlife.state.co.us to find out the results of their study. Thankfully the species was not put on the endangered species list but their hunting has been prohibited, and Colorado is being proactive on protecting their habitat.

I grew up on a farm and ranch and have seen the destructive power of these little animals. The PD can do a lot of damage to both prairie and crop lands, and the only effective method of population control seems to be poisoning. The poisons that are allowed cannot produce secondary kills to any animals that might consume the dead PD. It also can take several years to eliminate the PD on the property by poison and that is if you can control the spread of the town. It costs the farmer and rancher a considerable amount of money to poison the PD not to mention time, and if the town has spread across on to the neighbors property you also have to convince them to spend the money to poison or else your efforts are ineffective. The Slavic Plague is the one thing that most farmers and ranchers pray for to destroy the PD infestation on their lands.

I feel that the varmint hunter also has an important role to play in the population control of the PD. Hunting alone cannot wipe out a town of PD's, the animals become more wary the harder the town is hunted. I think it would take several weeks of hunting a small town to eliminate all of the PD in that area. I don't have any proof of this I'm only using my experience from hunting the PD on my families property. Hunting is also not a very cost effective way of population control, for the land owner.

Most land owners welcome the varmint hunters, as long as the hunter respects the landowner and his land that he/she is hunting on. Of course any ethical hunter already knows this and lives by it. So having stated this I feel that hunting the PD is a valid shooting sport and the people who made the video had every right to shoot them with their .50 BMG.

I watched the video clips to see what all the fuss was about, and was this video in bad taste probably. I'm not interested in watching someone kill the PD's to buy the video, but I have seen other varmint hunting videos where it was portrayed in a more positive manner. Where it showed the hunters doing a service for the land owner, and using it as a way to teach proper shooting techniques to other hunters and family members.

I just try to live by the rule of thumb that we have to share this planet with all creatures big and small, and hunting is a wonderful sport and pastime for many people to enjoy. We just need to hunt smart and not give anyone reason to take our hunting privileges away. Because I feel that hunting is definitely a privilege and not a right that we have.

kirbymagnum

December 2, 2005, 05:47 PM

I am agisnt killing for no reason, its like a hunting goes deer hunting shoots 3-4 of them and lets them run away and rot because he doesnt want to put his tag on one and just feels like killing. I am also against killing for no reason. But the hunter who shoots 3-4 deer and dosn't tag them they will not be wasted crows, ravins, coyotes will eat them they need to eat two. But do i think it is right no.